I am not an expert on race and ethnicity, why did I get myself into this, aaaack

[bironic]

Fourteen months into this vidding project, a few weeks before the deadline, and I'm revisiting difficult questions in the hope of not doing something accidentally terrible. In this case, agonizing about whether I'm going to end up in hot water if I continue with plans to include certain Latinx characters/actors if the vid is described as being about characters of color.

I've encountered impassioned and sophisticated arguments on both sides -- some say the umbrella term Latinx includes both white people and people of color, some say Latinx by definition is not white, some say it's whatever people self-identify as -- and I'm certainly not in a position to weigh in. And I'm not sure whether phrasing the scope as something like "characters of color, including Latinx" (or "and Latinx") in vidder's notes makes things better or worse.

The person who requested this vid asked right away for a few characters who fall into this category. One I disqualified because even though the character, Maggie Sawyer on Supergirl, is Latinx, the actress who plays her is Italian. Others didn't give me pause because they belong to additional racial or ethnic minority groups, such as Fernando and Joanna on the show 3%. But the rest are trickier.

For reference, we're talking about a dozen characters, or ~5% of the total group I'm trying to cram into four minutes of clips:

Rogue One - Cassian Andor (Diego Luna)
Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac)
Star Trek Discovery - Hugh Culber (Wilson Cruz)
Annihilation - Anya (Gina Rodriguez)
Runaways - Molly Hernandez (Allegra Acosta)
Z Nation - Javier (‎Matt Cedeño) and Hector (Emilio Rivera)
Westworld - Hector (Rodrigo Santoro)
The Flash - Cisco Ramon (Carlos Valdez)
Ash vs. the Evil Dead - Pablo Simon Bolivar (Ray Santiago)
Lucifer - Dan Espinoza (Kevin Alejandro)
The Martian - Rick (Mark Anthony Peña)
Powerless - Green Fury (Natalie Morales)

A risk of inclusion in the vid is "othering" white Latinx. A risk of exclusion is, well, exclusion. These characters, like the rest of those in the vid, are kickass, and a lot of these actors have talked about how important it's been for them and their fans to see positive Latinx representation in genre media.

I've been framing the character list as "those who would be considered a racial or ethnic minority in the country that produced the movie/show." Still not sure if that takes care of things. (For a second the other day I thought I had it, in saying "the old-school supposed default in the U.S. is 'non-Hispanic white,' so this vid is 'everyone else,'" but of course Hispanic /= Latinx.)

Missing or misunderstanding something obvious? Overthinking it? Does the fact that Sigrid and other friends suggested most of these characters when I said "characters of color" answer the question in itself?

Help?

ETA: It sounds like reframing from "characters of color" to something like "characters of races and ethnicities underrepresented in the countries that produced the show or film" might resolve the quandary. Thoughts still welcome.

Comments

[stultiloquentia]

1. I think I'd aim for inclusion.
2. I think you're overthinking it a bit. It's important and awesome that you're thinking about it for your own sake, but your vid doesn't have to be the last word on anything. Just use the characters with cool clips that match your music, eh?
3. I recently became aware of the word "Latine" as a more euphonious, speakable as well as writeable, alternative to "Latinx." You're not wrong to use Latinx -- just an FYI I thought was nifty. :)

[bironic]

Thank you. <3 I'm trying to do right by everyone, and also to avoid, if possible, upsetting, like, half of WisCon (as the vid's first audience) for including or not including this demographic.

[seekingferret]

As someone who has submitted a premiere to Wiscon's vidshow in the past and is hoping to do so again this year, but who has never attended Wiscon, I chose to imagine the Wiscon vidshow as a place where people are there prepared to enjoy works even if they only imperfectly address issues of diversity, not as a place where people are there sharpening their knives to attack any failure.

[bironic]

That sounds wise and realistic. Now if I could convince my hindbrain...

[seekingferret]

Always a problem. But as I too wrestle with my unruly Wiscon vid and only days to finish, I wish you luck!

[bironic]

Same!

[mific]

It’s complicated, yeah. My instinct would be to include Latine(x) characters.

This is probably a thing you looked at but here’s Dark Agenda’s profile page: https://dark-agenda.dreamwidth.org/profile

We had an “ethnic diversity” challenge at Drawesome recently (https://drawesome.dreamwidth.org/51801.html#comments), with some discussion of this, but it was mostly about clarifying that aliens didn’t count per se, as it was about people from less-represented Earth ethnicities getting to see themselves represented in fanworks. So Chewbacca, no, Ronon Dex, yes. Latinex people would have been included.

[bironic]

Thank you. <3

I had not looked at the dark_agenda profile, actually - thanks. This project is still largely U.S. & Western source material, but the language over there is helpful, as is the fact that "Latin@ characters" is listed in the community tags.

[grammarwoman]

I would say that if Sigrid suggested the characters, she would enjoy seeing them, and would not consider their inclusion to be problematic.

(FWIW, I know Sigrid, and know that she appreciates vids and the work that goes into them, and the ever-evolving questions around fandom and POC, so in general, I hear you about freaking out, and offer that you go easy on yourself and get the vid done.)

*HUGS* I think it's gonna be awesome, no matter what, because your vids are invariably AMAZING.

[bironic]

Thank you. <3

>>and offer that you go easy on yourself and get the vid done

Eh? What is this thing, going easy on oneself?

:)

FWIW, I'm in regular touch with Sigrid about the vid process and I think we're both good with everything so far. So that is great. It's more the wider reception I'm biting my nails over. But it sounds like people are in general agreement here so far, which is helpful.

[merisunshine36]

I'm in agreement with everything stultiloquentia said!(disclaimer that I am not LatinX).

To do some overthinking of my own, I'm not totally clear what you mean by the concept of "othering" white LatinX? When I read that, my interpretation is that idea pastes a very USian concept of generic Whiteness over people from a ton of different countries that have their own individual ways of discussing race/ethnicity. Plus, the way someone identifies within their country of ethnic origin does not always translate easily to U.S. race dialogue. When I worked in academic research labs with folks from Latin and South America, they did not identify as e.g. White Brazilian or Black Brazilian, they were just Brazilian or Dominican or Chilean. And whatever terms they might use to talk about their own countries skin-color based discrimination issues are probably completely different from ours.

It may be worth it to reframe entirely, with a phrase like "characters from underrepresented ethnicities" instead of "Characters of Color" - then it's not necessary to draw lines based on actual skin tones.

And fwiw (which may not be much), I've found it relaxing to accept that when writing groups that are marginalized, you just kind of have to accept that you might wind up having uncomfortable discussions about your decisions, just because there is so much less representation and as a result, every individual work is a Big Deal. So you just have to do the best you can and be open to potentially complicated dialogue about your work. I'm black and Ryan Coogler is black, but I still had a few things I side-eyed Black Panther for.

[bironic]

Thank you. This is all very smart. <3

>>I'm not totally clear what you mean by the concept of "othering" white LatinX?

I got the sense while reading Fans Arguing On The Internet -- for example, http://luxshine.tumblr.com/post/155729271513/hijadepavlov-luxshine, this is what I get for looking at a Tumblr post -- that some Latinx community members would be offended to be called non-white. The new framing/phrasing that's taking shape in this post, like what you suggest about underrepresented ethnicities, probably sidesteps the problem, but it did complicate the language I was using in that paragraph above.

>>the way someone identifies within their country of ethnic origin does not always translate easily to U.S. race dialogue

Oh, defffffffinitely. I remember learning yet another facet of that phenomenon when C.S. Pacat tweeted about Mediterranean vs. English ethnicity in Australia. The vid notes will indicate that the project focuses on Western source (mostly U.S., plus England, Canada, Australia and New Zealand and like one or two others IIRC, such as 3% from Brazil) and characters who are considered racial or ethnic minorities in those countries.

>>you just have to do the best you can and be open to potentially complicated dialogue about your work

Yeah. At this point I guess I'm just trying to make sure that my decisions are as educated as they can be, so I'm better prepared to understand and/or engage in those discussions.

And if posting "Starships!" on YouTube taught me anything, it's that some people will be happy with a happy vid and others will harp on inclusion/exclusion choices... just that the stakes are higher when you're talking about people's identities rather than spaceships!

[sanguinity]

And if posting "Starships!" on YouTube taught me anything, it's that some people will be happy with a happy vid and others will harp on inclusion/exclusion choices...

Thanks for that. I wasn't prepared for the "how could you not include [x]??" people (or, conversely, the "you included too much [x]!!") when I published my own multi-vid and it's a comfort to hear what I should have already known: This Is Just A Thing That People Will Do.

It sounds like you and other commenters have sorted out the description of the vid, so the only thing I can add is that there is no correct, universal classification of race, it's always local and contextual, and the best that you can do is have clear in your own head what your goals are, and acknowledge that whatever you did to meet your own objectives is going to inevitably fall short on some other, also-worthy objectives. And then make your peace with that as early as you can manage.

[seekingferret]

This Is Just A Thing That People Will Do

It's happened to me too a few times with regards to Might Lead to Mixed Dancing-it's been very satisfying that in all cases so far I've been able to tell them "It's IN there, you just missed it." Since I know at least twenty fandoms I could've included and didn't, that's not necessarily always going to be the case.

[sanguinity]

Oh, nice, having the trump card of Being Right at them. ;-)

The complaint I remember most vividly was from a German fan about a Nazi-era comedy that I'd left out on purpose because I didn't know whether it'd get ick all over a year's work. I still don't know enough about that film to make the call. MAKE YOUR OWN VID I mentally shout at these people, and then attempt to move on.

[bironic]

I think there's a point too where the more sources a vid includes, the easier or more tempting it is for certain viewers to play the "but X isn't in there" game - where exclusion stands out more.

[bironic]

Yes to everything. Thank you.

[minoanmiss]

*pops by*
*cosigns*
*hugs everyone*
*runs off*

[rionaleonhart]

Questions of race can get very weird and complicated. I have a friend who's Jewish, and it's simultaneously true that they're white and that they face racial discrimination; I've seen a stranger tell them to go back to their own country, in England, where they've lived their entire life.

I'd lean towards including Latine characters, particularly if the requester suggested including them. In an ambiguous case, might as well be inclusive.

[bironic]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! That seems to be the consensus, and I've been proceeding accordingly.

>>it's simultaneously true that they're white and that they face racial discrimination

Or religious and/or cultural discrimination that certain people think of as racial discrimination, anyway, because Judaism is not a race. Nor a nationality, which too many supposedly reputable news outlets still forget these days. :(

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's experience.

[goss]

I second many of the above comments:

- Go with inclusion rather than exclusion since they were requested.
- Reframe from "Character of Color" to Underrepresented ethnicities in media. (In this case, a longer explanation might work better than using a catch phrase/labels)
- Expect that producing works that focus on Representation will always generate discussion from people with different points of view, but that's what's so great about doing it in the first place. :)

[bironic]

Yeah, I have to remember that last point! Thank you.

[deelaundry]

The only thing I have to contribute is that I think Cisco Ramon would be annoyed if you called him white.

(Also, the Cuban-heritage family on One Day at a Time don't consider themselves white, to the point that the daughter was upset when someone assumed she was white.)

*hugs* I'm glad you are always so thoughtful but please don't wrap yourself around the axle on this. You already know that different opinions exist, so there is no "right answer," unfortunately.

[bironic]

:) <3

[laurashapiro]

I'm afraid I don't have nuance here. Reframing as "underrepresented ethnicities" seems like an easy way to go. Another would be to ask friends of color for their opinions, though of course that doesn't guarantee you won't piss someone off.

Actually, there's never a guarantee of that, so why not make the vid you want?

[bironic]

Gonna frame that and put it over the vidding computer.

[laurashapiro]

Glad I could help. :D

[monanotlisa]

"there's never a guarantee of that, so why not make the vid you want?"

Heh! Indeed.

Bironic, as I told you, I think this vid is amazing.

My input on the racial complexities of US-American media is, as you know, limited. You also know that has never stopped me from giving it. One thing I hang on to these days is the fact we're all learning -- it means we change, and we can change. None of our creations are the last word.

[sasha_feather]

Sounds like a wonderful project and I'm looking forward to seeing the final result.

[bironic]

Thank you. <3